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Topic Subject: Patch 15/Emperor Edition Beta now available!
posted 09-01-14 01:32 PM EDT (US)   
The Patch 15/Emperor Edition Beta is now live and available for download! The Beta includes the highly anticipated changes to politics and civil wars, along with the the new building changes (not save game compatible) and tweaks to land and naval battles. You can find out about all this and more by following the link below and checking out Joey CA's thread on the official Total War Forums!

The headline changes in the Beta are:

  • Politics and civil war improvements
  • Overhauled building chains
  • Special regions
  • Campaign balancing changes
  • Land battle changes
  • Naval battle balancing changes

    Patch 15/Emperor Edition BETA Live Now!!!

  • "Life is more fun when you are insane. Just let go occasionally".- yakcamkir 12:14
    "It is not numbers, but vision that wins wars." - Antiochus VII Sidetes
    "My magic screen is constantly bombarded with nubile young things eager to please these old eyes. This truly is a wonderful period in which to exist! - Terikel Grayhair
    Angel of Total War: Rome II Heaven and the Total War: Attila Forums
    Replies:
    posted 09-02-14 05:16 AM EDT (US)     1 / 7  
    Will I be able to carry on with my saved campaign under the new patch? Or will it refuse to load? I'd hate to have to start all over again, it's the one I started when I first got the game (still not finished...).

    EDIT: Oh:
    In order to not break/soft-break save games, the new building changes are only available when starting new campaigns.
    Also, here are some of the more interesting changes:
    Negative bonuses now apply from level 2 in a small form so you can see what those are earlier.

    Food penalties removed from lowest level core settlement buildings.
    Those penalty changes are interesting, because I always thought the penalty system previously in use discouraged upgrading beyond level 3 or so. I'm not sure that these changes will fix that, but I guess it's a start and hopefully will be re-balanced later.

    Ideally the penalties should increase linearly with level, not exponentially as was the case.

    Or maybe scrap the whole penalty system, and introduce an "upkeep" system costing gold per turn for buildings. That would fix the ridiculous amount of income I seem to be getting. Then they can make cities keep growing even after all the building slots are unlocked, and tie it to the squalor system.
    A new thing that has been introduced are special regions.Effectively regions now have effect bundles that give them certain bonuses. Currently Roma, Carthago, Pella, Pergamon, Antioch and Baktra have these effects. Rome for example gives +2 recruitment slots in that province for owning it and +15% to all income. Carthago has a bonus to commerce income.
    Instead of making only a select number of special regions with massive bonuses, how about giving all regions small unique bonuses? Even better, make them work on the province level instead of region level to encourage the conquering of full provinces.
    Units with precursor weapons can now fire at will when stationary.
    Does this mean legionaries will throw javelins before engaging now like in the original Rome?
    The pace of battles and combat has been reduced, and morale values adjusted so battles last longer and are more dynamic.

    ...

    Balancing changes to almost all units.
    I think this will break most of the tactics I rely on in battles.
    Speed of all ships reduced.
    Seriously? They were already so slow!
    Transport ships ramming damage significantly reduced.
    This is the end of naval battles as we know it.

    StormComing (to me): "Seems like you're way under-ranked"

    Check out my series of guides for the scenario editor in the link below! | Best Otto TR score

    The definitive collection of my scenarios, along with my scenario editor walkthrough, recorded games, and much much more!

    [This message has been edited by anterior2 (edited 09-02-2014 @ 05:43 AM).]

    posted 09-02-14 09:26 AM EDT (US)     2 / 7  
    I think this will break most of the tactics I rely on in battles.

    Speed of all ships reduced.

    Seriously? They were already so slow!

    Transport ships ramming damage significantly reduced.


    This is the end of naval battles as we know it.
    I doubt the morale changes are that drastic. Certainly nothing on par with mods such as DeI. I'm sure your tactics will be fine. Though you should always account for a stubborn enemy and never rely on just speed of the battle. Plus, it's more fun to have longer lasting battles than short ones!

    As for the ships speed, they were pretty fast in my opinion. I'm glad they've slowed them down a bit. Transports should have next to nothing for ramming damage, as they aren't warships, but simple transports that were very vulnerable on their own and require dedicated escorts to protect them.

    I am the Carthaginian who became an angel, and surrendered his wings for a life on the sea of battle.

    My magic screen is constantly bombarded with nubile young things eager to please these old eyes. This truly is a wonderful period in which to exist! - Terikel the Deflowerer
    posted 09-02-14 10:03 AM EDT (US)     3 / 7  
    Those penalty changes are interesting, because I always thought the penalty system previously in use discouraged upgrading beyond level 3 or so. I'm not sure that these changes will fix that, but I guess it's a start and hopefully will be re-balanced later.

    Ideally the penalties should increase linearly with level, not exponentially as was the case.

    Or maybe scrap the whole penalty system, and introduce an "upkeep" system costing gold per turn for buildings. That would fix the ridiculous amount of income I seem to be getting. Then they can make cities keep growing even after all the building slots are unlocked, and tie it to the squalor system.
    I agree that the penalties always were too much and discouraged players from fully upgrading their buildings. An upkeep system for buildings definitely sounds more interesting, superior and would perhaps make late campaigns more exciting since players wouldn't have such an inflated warchest to deal with the AI empires.

    Penalties appear to be CA's plan however, so I believe we'll have to look to modding for an alternate system. I've heard that the Rome 2: Total Realism team is working on something like this in their mod, but I don't know the specific details
    Instead of making only a select number of special regions with massive bonuses, how about giving all regions small unique bonuses? Even better, make them work on the province level instead of region level to encourage the conquering of full provinces.
    There actually is a mod that does this, which I believe is the inspiration (at least partly) behind this change by CA. It's called Meaningfull Unique Provinces and if you look closely at the OP you might see a familiar name
    Does this mean legionaries will throw javelins before engaging now like in the original Rome?
    Yes, Roman units and several other melee units that loose javelins before a charge can now be set to 'fire-at-will' and loose their missiles at any enemy that comes into range of them
    I think this will break most of the tactics I rely on in battles.
    I think the changes are step in the right direction. I've personally never been happy with the short "5 minute battles" of vanilla Rome 2, which is why mods like Magnar's, Radious' and Divide et Impera are so popular with the Total War Community. I've tried the new battles in the Beta myself, and it's the first time I enjoyed battles in vanilla Rome 2 in a very long time.
    Seriously? They were already so slow!
    I always thought they were a little too fast, but that's my opinion
    This is the end of naval battles as we know it.
    Changes like this might actually get more players to play naval battles more often. I know I'm not the only one who was less than happy when they lost a fleet of first class warships to a fleet of instantly built transports who won the boarding battle thanks to their superior troops numbers and unrealistic maneuvering speed Transport ships should be slow, vulnerable and hard to maneuver since they're not meant to be warships but a means of getting a lot of troops (who would undoubtedly weigh down the ship) from point A to point B.

    "Life is more fun when you are insane. Just let go occasionally".- yakcamkir 12:14
    "It is not numbers, but vision that wins wars." - Antiochus VII Sidetes
    "My magic screen is constantly bombarded with nubile young things eager to please these old eyes. This truly is a wonderful period in which to exist! - Terikel Grayhair
    Angel of Total War: Rome II Heaven and the Total War: Attila Forums
    posted 09-02-14 12:39 PM EDT (US)     4 / 7  
    It's called Meaningfull Unique Provinces and if you look closely at the OP you might see a familiar name
    I may or may not have assisted with it I mean, he does say Punic Habil, whilst I am Punic Hebil

    I am the Carthaginian who became an angel, and surrendered his wings for a life on the sea of battle.

    My magic screen is constantly bombarded with nubile young things eager to please these old eyes. This truly is a wonderful period in which to exist! - Terikel the Deflowerer
    posted 09-02-14 10:00 PM EDT (US)     5 / 7  
    I doubt the morale changes are that drastic. Certainly nothing on par with mods such as DeI. I'm sure your tactics will be fine. Though you should always account for a stubborn enemy and never rely on just speed of the battle. Plus, it's more fun to have longer lasting battles than short ones!
    My tactics relied on basically charging the enemy using very wide battle lines (trying to have a wider front line than the enemy) and holding their infantry units in place while my cavalry destroyed their ranged units. I would use gladiator spearmen to chase down any enemy cavalry (gladiator spearmen have great stamina, morale, and a sprint function, plus the bonus vs cavalry of course) and then once that was finished I would concentrate my cavalry+spearmen at the points in the infantry battle where they were needed.

    With these morale changes I might not be able to break the enemy ranged units + cavalry fast enough before the enemy meelee infantry gain a large advantage.
    As for the ships speed, they were pretty fast in my opinion. I'm glad they've slowed them down a bit. Transports should have next to nothing for ramming damage, as they aren't warships, but simple transports that were very vulnerable on their own and require dedicated escorts to protect them.
    My thinking is that if you are already going so far as to grant land units free ships out of nowhere, you might as well make those ships somewhat useable in a battle. The dedicated naval fighting ships already carry around regular legionaries/javalin throwers capable of fighting on land just as well as a land-based legionary, so why make sea-based legionaries over-all better?

    At least for the boarding option it should make transport legionaries equal to sea-based legionaries because in that case they are fighting hand-to-hand. If you did give sea-based legionaries a bonus there because "they would be more used to fighting at sea" then you might as well give sea-based legionaries a penalty on land.
    Yes, Roman units and several other melee units that loose javelins before a charge can now be set to 'fire-at-will' and loose their missiles at any enemy that comes into range of them
    Yay!
    I think the changes are step in the right direction. I've personally never been happy with the short "5 minute battles" of vanilla Rome 2, which is why mods like Magnar's, Radious' and Divide et Impera are so popular with the Total War Community. I've tried the new battles in the Beta myself, and it's the first time I enjoyed battles in vanilla Rome 2 in a very long time.
    I personally think that battle length should be dependant on the number of units in the battle. So for battles with heaps of units it should go longer than smaller skirmishes.
    Changes like this might actually get more players to play naval battles more often. I know I'm not the only one who was less than happy when they lost a fleet of first class warships to a fleet of instantly built transports who won the boarding battle thanks to their superior troops numbers and unrealistic maneuvering speed Transport ships should be slow, vulnerable and hard to maneuver since they're not meant to be warships but a means of getting a lot of troops (who would undoubtedly weigh down the ship) from point A to point B.
    But naval ships carry the same types and numbers of units as transport ships. You can disembark a fighting ship with legionaries onto land and then fight with them just like any land-based legionaries, so why shouldn't it work the other way around too?

    Surely the two ship-types could be combined or something? Like make ship-building work on the army level, so whenever you want to carry an army over the sea, you get a menu where you can choose from previously built ships, or wait a few turns while your army builds more ships. This would make getting those "when admiral" traits/bonuses on army generals worthwhile, because the distinction between army and navy would be removed. It would also introduce a nice delay when setting an army out to sea for the first time, because I found instant-transports to be very immersion-breaking in Civ5 which pioneered the idea I think, and I still get this feeling in Rome II.

    Actually, speaking of Civ5, has anyone else noticed the massive similarities between the Rome II campaign map and Civ5? Everything from the "ray of light" to show which unit you have selected, to the use of actual fog to symbolise the fog-of-war, to instant transports, to the visually growing cities, to the minimalistic UI keeps making me think that the designers of this game were fans of Civ5.

    StormComing (to me): "Seems like you're way under-ranked"

    Check out my series of guides for the scenario editor in the link below! | Best Otto TR score

    The definitive collection of my scenarios, along with my scenario editor walkthrough, recorded games, and much much more!

    [This message has been edited by anterior2 (edited 09-02-2014 @ 10:08 PM).]

    posted 09-03-14 01:00 AM EDT (US)     6 / 7  
    I personally think that battle length should be dependant on the number of units in the battle. So for battles with heaps of units it should go longer than smaller skirmishes.
    I agree, but that was the problem with vanilla Rome 2 at launch and for a very long time afterwards: morale was so buggy & fragile and kill rates were so high that it was easy to start a mass rout that would allow the winner (usually the player) to wipe out the opposing army very easily. And of course there was the time when attacking/being attacked in Forced March always resulted in an ambush battles that were even shorter thanks to the 25% morale penalty. That wouldn't be so bad if they AI didn't use the stance so often and made itself easy pickings for the player.
    But naval ships carry the same types and numbers of units as transport ships.
    Actually they don't. A warship designed for boarding/close combat carrying Hastati for example only carries 80 or 100 men at most, a transport carries the land equivalent's full 160. It goes the same for other types of ships such as skirmishing ships (60-80) to specialist ones like fire pot ships and artillery ships.
    You can disembark a fighting ship with legionaries onto land and then fight with them just like any land-based legionaries, so why shouldn't it work the other way around too?

    Surely the two ship-types could be combined or something? Like make ship-building work on the army level, so whenever you want to carry an army over the sea, you get a menu where you can choose from previously built ships, or wait a few turns while your army builds more ships. This would make getting those "when admiral" traits/bonuses on army generals worthwhile, because the distinction between army and navy would be removed.
    The reason it shouldn't is because armies and navies have separate and distinct roles. The troops disembarking from ships are primarily meant to support the actions of the land-based armies. The land troops in transports shouldn't be able to win naval battles against real warships because they're on transports. For a modern analogy, have you ever heard of a cruise liner or a ferry defeating a destroyer or aircraft carrier in combat or in a boarding action?

    Lastly, the reason that armies can't choose from pre-built warships when they decide to cross the sea is because the navy and army are meant to be distinct. Most legionnaires who have fought on land for nearly all of their military careers wouldn't have the slightest idea on how to work the rigging, masts or even get a proper rowing rhythm down at the drop of a hat. Yes Rome II is a game, but it also does its best to maintain a sense of 'historical authenticity'. Soldiers being Renaissance men capable of fighting as an army, navy or air force could make sense in a Real Time Strategy game, but it doesn't fit the rules or the spirit of a turn based strategy game set in the ancient world.

    Not trying to be particularly mean to you anterior2 I'm just very against elements or features that could make Rome 2 or any Total War game any more (for lack of a better word) "arcadey" than it already is.

    "Life is more fun when you are insane. Just let go occasionally".- yakcamkir 12:14
    "It is not numbers, but vision that wins wars." - Antiochus VII Sidetes
    "My magic screen is constantly bombarded with nubile young things eager to please these old eyes. This truly is a wonderful period in which to exist! - Terikel Grayhair
    Angel of Total War: Rome II Heaven and the Total War: Attila Forums
    posted 09-03-14 05:53 AM EDT (US)     7 / 7  
    Ah, I see. I guess my Civ and AoE preferences are mixing with my Total War opinions too much. I've always viewed Total War as a hybrid of the two, so I sometimes can't help comparing them all with each other.

    StormComing (to me): "Seems like you're way under-ranked"

    Check out my series of guides for the scenario editor in the link below! | Best Otto TR score

    The definitive collection of my scenarios, along with my scenario editor walkthrough, recorded games, and much much more!
    Total War: Rome 2 Heaven » Forums » News » Patch 15/Emperor Edition Beta now available!
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